Since the advent of religion within the echelons of civilization, religious sects have, for the longest time, fought against their various rivals and secular forces to secure a strong, unshakable position within the highest echelons of power in a bid to wield absolute control over the ignorant masses. Having secured a snug, comfortable position beside the Monarchy (or any other tyrant and despot of the era), a religious cult will, with calculated malice and ill-intent, declare its victory in an almost unctuous and unabashed manner, and how religion goes about in securing and fortifying it's precarious position at the top is often a subject of controversy.
As with all manners of tyrannical organizations, once religious organizations have sniffed and sneaked their way into positions of power, one of it's very first moves will be hinged on silencing the opposition. In the case of religion, one of the most ostensible traits within the religious hierarchies has to be blasphemy, a somewhat innocuous, blameless and imaginary crime to negate and destroy possible opposition towards an official religion.
The Issue of Blasphemy
The origins of the word "blasphemy" is a mishmash of several languages: "blasfemer" from Old French, "blasfemen" from Middle English & "blasphemein" from Greek.
Generally speaking, blasphemy refers to a staunch refusal to submit to the rigid, stupid emotions and reverence with regards to stupid piety and undue respect towards a religion and its pantheon of deities or a singular deity. Under blasphemy laws, anyone who is caught defaming or verbally abusing the deity in question can be liable for charges, and depending on which century and era one is born and the country he or she is raised, charges of blasphemy can be dealt with utmost severity, some of which do involve lobbing off heads off heretic shoulders.
Sometimes, the act of blasphemy can be enacted beyond mere words: Flushing a Quran down the toilet, for example, is bound to invoke murderous cries of beheading and other heinous deeds from Islam's fundamentalist crooks. Taking a piss at a holy cross may also trigger calls for secular punishment, especially in quasi-democratic countries such as Malaysia and Singapore.
While many secular countries do not enforce and impose blasphemy laws upon their citizens, many European countries have kept pre-existing anti-blasphemy laws which have existed for as long as mainstream Christianity has endured, and for inexplicable reasons these ignominious laws have been left untouched, even though they have long outlived their usefulness.
When religion is concerned, the crime of blasphemy is viewed with murderous contempt, and that expunging blasphemous infidels is a divine duty to be executed with the most deadly efficiency.
Leviticus Chapter 24: 16 puts it succinctly:
"He who blasphemes the name of Yahweh, he shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him: the foreigner as well as the native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death."
Islam, as usual, is never far behind in its hot pursuit against heretics and infidels of any sort:
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; " [Surah Al-Maidah 5:33]
Recommendation 1805 of the EU Court
Most disturbingly, however, is the European Union's keenness at applying such archaic laws: Ever since the outcries caused by the Danish cartoon fracas, the EU has become an unwitting lackey to these fundamentalist bastards who wished to impose their "God-given" right to shut up the voices of the disbelieving public:
In June 2007, Recommendation 1805 was adopted by the Parlimentary Assembly of the Council of Europe which has, in its tenets, stated provisions against "blasphemy, religious insults and hate speech against persons on grounds of their religion. " In a bid to ease secular voices and supporters of free speech, this erstwhile "recommendation" has also issued a number of guidelines that are supposedly in tandem with Articles 10 (Freedom of Expression) & 9 (Freedom of thought, conscience and religion).
In a bid to placate the dissenting voices against free speech and equal rights, religious groups have attempted to abuse the Danish Cartoon incident to impose their views upon the EU. Religion, it seems, is now deemed untouchable to the common masses. You may abuse the government, you may abuse corporations, but if you wish to abuse religion, then woe to you!
Blasphemy: My God-Damned Right To Free Speech!
While some people may view this issue with maligned triviality, certain implications cannot be ignored. Free speech is an area of concern: The right to blasphemy is an individual right to free speech, and how the individual expresses his or her indignant feelings towards a said deity should not be viewed upon as an infringement of secular law.
While some may lament that flushing bibles and qurans down toilets is an outrageous travesty, I see no issue beyond what is really a strictly mechanical affair: Bibles and Qurans don't exactly mix well with toilets, and choking up public toilets is an issue of civility and inconvenience, and should a crime be charged upon the offender, it should be a case of vandalism rather than a blameless crime of blasphemy.
Free speech aside, blasphemy is a frivolous charge: Any act that is viewed as an intent to insult a deity can be misconstrued as an innocuous attempt at insulting a deity. If I were to consume pork in public, wouldn't that be an insult against the tenets of Islam? Should I be punished for my "insolent deed" too?
Good riddance to blasphemy laws, I say. If these deities whom these fervent supporters go through such lengths to protect are of any use at all, they should stand up, speak up and defend themselves, rather than going through such hoo-has and resorting to manipulating the legal systems. Our planet already has one too many a deity vying for a coveted place alongside secular law.
As for me, blasphemy is a good exercise to improve my blood circulation: Screaming "Fuck you, God" five days a day in the direction of Washington DC tends to trigger and invigorate the release of "good humors".
Go ahead. Commit your very own blasphemy today, before the laws of your country start to shut you up!
-“Lycurgus, Numa, Moses, Jesus Christ, Mohammed, all these great rogues, all these great thought-tyrants, knew how to associate the divinities they fabricated with their own boundless ambition." - Marquis de Sade, 1740-1814
77 comments:
Let's see you say f**k you god when you're on your death bed. See cos that's when you'll really start to fear, what if you were wrong all these years? when it's to find out once and for all you'll regret. That is if you make it to old age, still as an atheist in the first place.
In the mean while keep pushing your luck.
What if.......you were wrong all these years......and God was actually.......Shiva?
I have already explained Pascal's wager on my blog.
Beast
Good blog. You are so right about silencing the opposition. Is that why people (christians in my case) tell me to go to a preacher to have the bible interpreted for me because I will not understand it? I think they don't want me to see the nonsense that is in there. They can interpret it to me to make sense? I have a mind of my own thank you.
Well tina. Religion does not appeal to the rational, so since you can't convert them, silence them. Its the only logical solution to a completely irrational doctrine.
I don't consider the what ifs for Christianity being untrue. Because of my faith in it. The question is your faith in the fact that God doesn't exist.
It just goes back to the question of faith, I've explained why I have it, no atheist to my, to my knowledge has explained why he/she has so much faith in the fact that god doesn't exist.
So I can rest peacefully in my deathbed, while you'll be wondering about all your choices.
Shaun:
My answer to your question is simple: What is never potentially falsifiable most likely do not exist.
Let me give you an example. Let us suppose I believe fairies exist. I argue that unlike what most people think of fairies, fairies have sharp demonic teeth. Now, I cannot be proven wrong,neither can I be proven right, because we can't even prove that fairies exist in the first place.
I have no doubt as with regards to your "resting peacefully on your deathbed". My doubts are whether you will see the god which you so fervently worship throughout your time on this puny planet.
Beast
Well it's apparent you get all your material from Richard Dawkins. We'll see what he's saying on his deathbed. Shouldn't be too long from now.
Erm.......no, shaun. I get most material from wikipedia, from where I refer to external sources.
I do refer to dawkin's site from time to time, but only as a passing reference.
Beast
Then forgive me, that thing about the fairy sounds a lot like something Dawkins says a lot. Perhaps seeds of sin the devil plants in atheists.
great post!
The right to blasphemy is an individual right to free speech, and how the individual expresses his or her indignant feelings towards a said deity should not be viewed upon as an infringement of secular law. I would add it is our duty as intellectually honest beings to blaspheme.
It really sunk into me while reading this post that the horrible punishments the religious inflict on blasphemers,(now & in the past, that includes shauns death-bed prophecy of the horrors of hell)is nothing but the most despicable kind of fear tactic.
If there really was a God that sanctioned this kind of sadistic behavior how could we in good conscience not blaspheme him?
in fact it would be
shaun, you & people like you spew hate & insanity. You shit all over the intelligence & the dignity of the human race.
But you have the right to do it.
& it's a good thing too. this is how we know what an idiot you & your kind are.
keep talking. :)
Blasphemy is the one thing that is completely unforgivable, for whatever reason God chose this sin, he did. So, no you don't have the right to blaspheme. Secular law may not punish you for speaking your mind, but God will, if you blaspheme.
BTW, If you're singaporean, it's not like you've got much freedom of speech anyway. So the way I see it, you should be used to keeping mum about the garbage on your mind anyway.
Look around in this blog and you'll see it's the atheists who lack dignity. As for intelligence, it's the atheists who don't have enough to understand religion and the bible, and thus try explaining everything with science. Spewing hate, atheists do it more too. And as for me and my kind being idiots? the definition of an idiot describes an atheist better than it does a Christian.
Shaun. If you are not a Singaporean, I will suggest that you do not comment on this subject.
Us Singaporeans do have little rights to speak of, but we have legalized prostitution here and you don't, so there goes the trade-off.
And since this is online, I will advise you never to tell me to keep mum. I have this peculiar hatred against people who try to gag other people, and if you want to walk the way of DRD, then I suggest you stay off that route.
As for the right to blaspheme, I will do it again and again, till the day my breathe runs out. You christians can call us hatred mongers for all I care, but we are not the ones who run off into some fucking desserts declaring crusades on Muslims and calling people infidels.
Beast
The only true blasphemer is the the one who does believe in their god yet chooses to scorn their god willingly while still believe in its existence.
Atheists are incapable to blasphemy.
"Atheists are often charged with blasphemy, but it is a crime they cannot commit…
"When the Atheist examines, denounces, or satirises the gods, he is not dealing with persons but with ideas. He is incapable of insulting God, for he does not admit the existence of any such being.... We attack not a person but a belief, not a binge but an idea, not a fact but a fancy."
— G. W. Foote "Who are the Blasphemers?" in Flowers of Freethought
Beast, you are right though. "Blasphemy" is a right within the context of civil liberty.
Atheists are not the only "blasphemers". Accordingly (depending on your "faith"), Christians are blasphemers to Allah. Muslims are blasphemers to Alfadur. Jews are blasphemers to the Christian god. Protestantism are blasphemy to Catholicism.
This is one of the reasons I don't want to be involved in any kind of religion. Because it's devisive and only causes turmoil. So long as there is religion in the world we will never have peace on earth.
Larro, your take on blasphemy is debatable. You're still guilty anyway, because you don't know that god does not exist, you just think/hope/wish whatever, that God does not exist.
Either way, you wouldn't worry about whether or not you're a blasphemer unless you believed or accepted the possibility that god does exist. Right?
2 other things, sin and crime are different, and God is not a person.
Beast, why are non Singaporeans not allowed to speak? As I have said before, atheism is present all over the world, not just in Singapore, or America, or .., it's everywhere.
And your government's given you prostitutes in exchange for your right to speak freely? Way to go.
I'm not trying to gag you, God just wants you to refrain from doing one thing, that's all, don't speak ill of the holy spirit. You wouldn't even want to unless you had a grudge against it.
And as for the running into desserts , crusade on Muslims thing, are you talking about Bush?
That was a crusade on terrorism, not Muslims.
If you look back in history, it's the atheists who have caused death and destruction, lot more that what the Christians have done. I'm not saying all atheists are hate mongers, but since you brought it up, it is the atheists who have mongered more hate over the years.
Beast, what if a person was born, let's say in Africa. Has never came across christians or religious people, has never heard of god or jesus. Knows nothing what-so-ever of the bible. Has no religion at all. Is he dammed to hell, and I say that loosely? What of mentally challenged individual? I'm asking you because you know more about religion than I ever will or want to.
Well shaun you are right I was being hateful. I am a humanist & don't like feeling hateful toward anyone. One reason i secular embrace humanism is because we don't consign anyone to hell. It's really not you personally, It's that stupid destructive religion you adhere to that i hate.
larro is right it's devisive and only causes turmoil. So long as there is religion in the world we will never have peace on earth.
If your gripe with Christianity is that it's been destructive, don't blame Christianity on the whole. And I could argue that atheism has been destructive too, even more so than Christianity.
Tina, Beast...you like Bob Dylan?
Well let me quote him for ya....
Ya gotta serve somebody, yes indeed you gotta serve somebody, it may be the devil, or it may be the lord, but ya gotta serve somebody.
Bob Dylan from Slow Train Running.(modern day philosopher extraordinair)
Who do you serve? What god. Is it approval, is that your god? Is it money? Materialism, popularity?
What is it? I am just curious: we all have our 'gods' we serve, what are yours?
Just remember this: Whatever your gods (little 'g', not talking diety here, just in case you did not follow the analogy)...so, whatever your gods are , your serving them and they control you. Whether you realize it or not, your under control of something. Maybe its the idea of 'freedom', maybe thats your god..whatever it is, it controls your life.
Can you see that psychological fact? Does that register?
Whatever you 'gotta have' to be happy, that thing controls you: you aim everything in your life toward it. Whats yours.
You know what DRD, that's your opinion. You need to just worry about your god controlling you. Your opinion of Bob Dylan seems pretty high, well, he's not on my list. Why do you guys come here anyway? To irritate people? I come here because Beast makes a lot of sense to me. Why is it that you guys don't leave a link to your sites? Anyway, you don't have to answer that, I really don't wish to converse with you guys anymore. From now on I will try to just comment on the topic at hand, to Beast.
Tina..I was being a little facetious about Bob...sorry, hard to convey on a blog.
In regard to why I come here..well, its kinda boring talking to people who agree on everything all the time..much more intellectually stimulating to discuss stuff with people of differing opinions...
Have you ever heard 'if we both agree, one of us is not needed?'..its an old saying, you should have heard it. Do you want to come here and just 'agree' all the time? Don't you want to stimulate some actual mental challenges from time to time? Or do you just want beast to feed you the food you have come to enjoy so much? If feeds your presuppositions, and does not challenge anything about your thought life....is that what you want? Sad.
But not really surprising. I have found atheists shrink when challenged. You seem to be fitting the pattern.
Tina:
According to certain Christian doctrines, those who have not heard of the bible, or children who died shortly after they are born, don't exactly burn in hell. I think the Catholics have this invented semi-paradise known as the "limbo" or the "purgatory", although I am not exactly sure if this applies to the Protestants.
To the rest of the Christians:
I don't understand why we, as alpha animals on this putty little planet, must hold such a servile attitude towards life. If my life's emphasis revolves mainly around earning money, does that necessarily equate to worshiping the dollar sign? Obsession does not equate to servility and faith.
As s secular human, the idea of worship and gods repulses me.
Beast
Shaun:
Like I said, you do not understand the situation in Singapore, and I seriously doubt whether you know where Singapore is, so my suggestion is that you do not make a fool of yourself.
As for atheism being harmful, this kind of drivel has been reiterated and refuted countless times, including Richard Dawkin's book, the God Delusion. Hitchens, too, has something to say with regards to this issue.
In any case, keep within the decorum and don't try to tell people to keep mum.
Beast
But I do understand Singapore, and everything it's about. I've been to Singapore on vacation, and I'm in Singapore right now on my undergrad internship. So I do understand the situation in Singapore.
As for Richard Dawkins, atheism is his business, he has no choice but to defend it. He also has a duty to stand by what he says, so when called out on his claims, he quickly conjures up some response and spits it out.
His argument is that Hitler killed millions, around 15 million.
While atheists like Pol Pot, Stalin, Moa Zedong,Kim Jeung, Leonid, Mengistu, and many more killed in excess of 70 million, and that's just a conservative estimate.
For this, Dawkins quickly says that the atheists weren't motivated by atheism, but that Hitler was motivated my Christianity.
He ignores the possibility that Hitler may have killed a lot more had he not been a religious person. Sure he claimed he was doing the work of god, but he was also wiping out everyone who opposed his rule. Had he not been Christian he may well have not restricted his regime to Jews.
Dawkins also fails to consider the possibility if all atheist mass murderers were Christian, or just religious for that matter, they may have not killed at all.
The fact is most religions preach peace. One of Christianity's 10 commandments is that you should not kill. By using people who go awry, as reasons for why their religion is evil, Dawkins shows that he's just running on fumes, he has nothing valid against Christianity, or religion.
I don't know what Hitchens has said, but I saw a video of him on youtube, where he made a complete idiot of himself. So much so, that the the interviewer called him a jackass.
Dawkins and Hitchens are both making huge amounts of money from their atheist books and rants on the television, and botched debates. Perhaps that's their motivation to go so vigorously after religion.
You are in Singapore? Boy oh boy.....
I have lived here for 28 yrs, so.......I am the chip of the old block.
As for all those "atheist killers" you have mentioned, I will go as far as Dawkins says that he killed for his own political gains, and, in his later years, out of his own delusional fear.
Hitchens may give christians the impression of being a crackpot and an ass, no less because he drinks and smokes (That will also include me!), but if people do read what is behind mere fascade, they will notice that he is an extremely talented man. After all, this guy writes for vanity fair, and lectures in universities.
Beast
Wow, Vanity Fair hu? Big time.
I think someone on one of these blogs talked about 'cronies'...that poster Tina is a prime example of what that means. Blindly following someone without any of their own thought process. When challenged, she ran to your skirt tails and said 'I will only talk to my beast, he is the only one I will listen too.'
Cronyism defined right there bubba
Anonymous:
Is this what Christians are good at? Slandering atheists without reservation?
Please show some respect to the atheists here. This is an atheist blog. Unruly Christians will be dealt with without reservation.
Beast
Who was Dalkins talking about, when he said "he killed for his own political gains, and, in his later years, out of his own delusional fear."? That sounds like Hitler to me, Hitler was the one who went insane in the later part of his life, and orderer non existent people to be killed, and non existent soldiers into battle.
If that came from Dawkins mouth, he would have only been destroying his own case.
Either way, you cannot ignore the possibility that the Atheists dictators may have refrained from killing so many people had they been God-fearing individuals.
I know Dawkins is an intelligent person, no doubt. But his slow mind is no match for his quick tongue, that coupled with his hate for religion and the "I'm better than you" attitude, make for a very unconvincing argument.
Shaun:
Dawkins was voted the best intellectual in England. Before you start lampooning and mocking his intelligence, you might as well try to match his accolades with yours.
Beast
Hi again Beast. These commenter's think if someone comes to this blog that they don't have a mind of their own, boy, how untrue that is! Just because I don't enjoy being told my husband died because I was an atheist (insinuated, not exact words) by some crazy person (people) doesn't mean I don't like to hear new ideas and beliefs. I ask questions because I like to learn from people, it may not be what I believe but I was really curious to know why some people have religion in their life. All I got was, well, as you could see for yourself. I am usually a very passive person and I know I don't have the know how to argue some points with religious people. I think I would rather discuss religion with my sister, she doesn't judge people and she's a pentecostal. It's hard to put up with reading someones comment that attacks another because of their non-belief. I would hope to think that I attack religion, not the person. Thanks for the informative blogs Beast.
she ran to your skirt tails
Heehee, do you wear a skirt Beast? Just kidding.
Apparently, to all the xtians here, blasphemy is a crime. What is the punishment? Eternal damnation meted out by a god?
If it is deservedly so then what does anyone really care? If they all know their god is going to send us infidels to burn in a lake of fire?
I know. Because they'd all like to convince us "blasphemers" of their particular brand of the one "truth". In order that we be spared. It's not about heaven and hell. It's about validation. For all of us. Every single human being on this earth wants to be validated. The crucial element about this is how we go about seeking validation. So far, all I've seen here from the fundies are threats of damnation and belittling commentary. Sure, when I first came here and commented on the "Part 2- Inventing Your Own Religion" post, I came in looking to be pissed off. Only in defense of my family (that's enough to get somebody pissed off; when your very own family is verbally attacked or called into question). I may have said some harsh things then, but I never threatened anybody. I only used some harsh language in defense of my family.
Back to the validation thing. When people are confronted with the possibility of being invalidated it's something seldom wanting to be critically analyzed. This applies to everyone. I think this is why people have organized religion (why they go to church and hang out with other Christians; 'cause I can't imagine any of the fundies here actually going out to the bar with either of us for a drink, can you?), so they can be around like-minded individuals. Going to church and hanging out with other Christians makes it least likely to have to deal with any kind of invalidation. Atheists on the other hand have to deal with it every fucking day. We're surrounded by the faithful for christ sake (oops! one more drop of hydrochloric acid in the lake of fire!).
Thanks for reading.
I didn't say he wasn't intelligent. Just slow, and completely unconvincing in his arguments for atheism. His awards for academic achievement do not count one bit for his atheistic arguments either. He was voted Best intellectual in 2004, by a British magazine's readers. Keep in mind that Britain's population is around 45% atheist/agnostic , and 12 % Atheist, both much higher than the world averages of ~11% and ~3% respectively.
Which brings me to my next point, Tina, you wonder why 'some' of us have religion on our mind? well guess what? we're 89% of the world, you're 2.3, so think again.
More nonsense from the mouth of Dawkins, every Indian is Hindu and every American is Christian. No really, he said that.
Long posts indeed.
Tina:
Sorry to disappoint the Christians, but I don't exactly wear a skirt: I served in the Navy for two years and went through the worst crap shit in the military.
Larro:
I think your point about seeking validation is a good point. These religious crooks who want to sell us the idea of internal punishment understand that punishment after death ain't going to score every tom, dick and harry, so blasphemy was invented and fused together with secular law to give it a more valid threat
Beast
Larro, there you are again, confusing crime with sin. And man with God. No one's threatening you or your family.
Hell is merely what blasphemers are destined for. By God, not humans, it's God's condition, not a human's threat.
I do go to church, but I don't make it a point to hang out with only Christians, I've got Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, atheist... friends. I treat them all the same.
And since you brought up the point of seeking validation, let me point out to you the atheist blogroll displayed prominently on your ungodly cynic blog, and your presence on this atheist blog, and my presence on this blog. Here we are, you, comfortably on the blog and with the company of a fellow atheist, and me, out here, where I can find absolutely no validation whatsoever.
Shaun:
If you are in Singapore, I am available at soul_686@yahoo.com
I have a bunch of atheist friends: We meet up from time to time. If you wish we can talk face to face.
Don't worry. No violence involved. No one's going to bring a knife or a weapon to the table. I give you my personal assurance.
Beast
If your gripe with Christianity is that it's been destructive, don't blame Christianity on the whole. But that is the gripe shaun!
It's not certain things about Christianity or certain things about the religious mindset for that matter. It's the whole destructive ball of wax. You Christians think your religion is so different then the Muslim one? Or the jewish one? Or the Hindu one? It is not. You think that because you believe that Jesus is the son of God that that somehow makes your religion better. That kind of thinking is exclusive & it doesn't solve the problem, because the Hindus & the Muslims & the Jews are thinking in the same exclusive way. & your individual religions have brainwashed you into thinking that there is so much at stake, that you all will kill each other over your wonderful exclusive God.
This is the gripe.
Concerned Citizen, And yet it has been the atheist community that has caused close to 80 percent of the world's worst atrocities. A humongous number, considering they only count for 3% of the world population. Do the math, and you'll conclude that if you expand the numbers, had everyone been atheist, they would have wiped out 2.3 billion people in the last century. thanks to the lack of atheism, that number is only around 85 million. Of course, that was just a
statistical calculation. Hopefully it's completely inaccurate, but you'll get my point now.
And you're an atheist, argue your stand by yourself, don't summon the influences of Islam and Hinduism, to try and water down my argument.
Beast, That was very kind of you, but no thanks, There is nothing i can convince you of face to face that I can't on a blog, and more importantly, I don't meet with with people I find on the net. For whatever reasons I've got my reservations about that, I do.
Beast
Yes, its servitude when money is your goal...why?
Simple, if you get it, your happy, to an extent, if you don't, or not enough (and its never enough) then your not happy. It controls your life whether you acknowledge it or not...I am not saying this is true of you, but only using the money example you gave.
It does cause servitude, your a slave to 'getting it' and getting more of it, not just to survive, but as a self identity. (again, not you, those who make money their god)
Tina:
I specifically posed a philosophical question, with absolute factual pointedness about people...we all are slaves to something...popularity, acceptance, money, material wealth, power, ect.
You then responded by as the other reader noted, running to Beast, and ignoring the question and refusing dialog.
I have never attacked you, nor have I implied anything about your husband or anything else about you, except the obvious from your posts: namely, you dont' like to dialog with anyone who disagree's with you.
Seems very few want to stick to the premise of the post here.
Shaun... don't do it. Don't meet up with Beast. He is an angry, violent "man" (and I use that term loosely), who has no regard for others. Just ask Tim at splintersofsilver.com
Why? what happened to Tim? anyway, I don't meet people from the net, and I'm going back to the U.S. this Friday, can't wait to eat all the good food there, and go to the awesome churches. One thing I've come to know about Singapore is that the churches here don't feel right. I'll give you that, the people don't really all seem to go to church for the right reasons.
Beast, if you're ever in the U.S. go to a church there and see how you feel. If you still don't like it, no harm's done.
shaun said
had everyone been atheist, they would have wiped out 2.3 billion people in the last century. thanks to the lack of atheism, that number is only around 85 million. Of course, that was just a
statistical calculation. Hopefully it's completely inaccurate, but you'll get my point now.
That's completely idiotic & no I don't get your point.
What do the political ideologies of Pol Pot, Stalin, Moa Zedong, Kim Jeung, Leonid, Mengistu, have to do with atheism? Does being an atheist make one a murderer?
Because some atheists murder...Do you think all atheists condone murder? Not all atheists are communists & communists didn't kill everybody because they weren't atheists, anyway.
There are many ways in that atheists are not like Religious people. We don't have a book for one thing, we don't have a creed. Atheism is an individual philosophy. We label our own selves. I use the broad term atheist but identify my philosophy as agnostic secular humanist.
All atheists I know are intelligent caring human beings.
But If you want to lump all atheists together, then I certainly can lump all religious folk together? Let's see we have Christians, Jews, & Muslims, Hindus, etc...all the religious folk of the world. I wonder how many people actually have been killed in the name of Religion? Not just yours, or ben ladens, or Jesus's (has anyone ever added up how many people the Jews killed in the OT?, BTW)
The number of the beast...
666!!
What was idiotic about it? it was math. Here's the other half, had everyone been Christian, we would have only lost about 50 million. Statistics again, don't make much of it.
You said that your gripe with Christianity is that it's been destructive, I've showed quite clearly that atheists have caused the worst destruction in the last century.
And why am I being asked to answer for Islam and Hinduism, and other religion? The way I see it, they might as well be atheists. But anyway, just for your satisfaction, The Killings caused by religious people, and this includes every religion, still does not exceed 25 million.
I hope I've explained my point.
If you're wondering why I'm blaming atheism for atheists' faults, it's just to counter Dawkins favorite excuse for hating Religion, apparently it's destructive.
So what's your point Shaun? If anything (if what you say is true) we [all humanity] should all be working together to make sure such atrocities never occur again. Not by pointing out the "faults" of an ideology as if every individual ascribing to it is a horrible person. A murderer and genocidal maniac. Is that constructive at all? The same could be said of those pegging blame on Christianity (I'm just as guilty).
It's getting late here now and I've just found out there is a 12 hour difference between here and Singapore. Well, you Singaporians have a pleasant day.
Larro, what hope has the world if there is not a reason beyond 'now' and existentialism to explain behavior?
It seems protecting you and yours is all that should matter, then getting all life has to offer experencially is the only thing thats important.
Atrocity not associated with you is no biggy, and in fact, what is 'atrocity' if life is finite, and we all end in dust? Why should we care? We are random chemical accidents, with random elecrical impulses leading to thoughts, that in the end are meaningless, right? Thats exactly what it is if there is no god? Am I wrong?
The more reason to care.
shaun I'm not even going to comment on your "predictions" of the past, except to say math is used to justify nonsense all the time.
So the other religious folks that aren't Christian are just atheists anyway? Ha Ha! How typically unoriginal & Christian.
anonymous
I am an existentialist in my thinking.
I believe that now is more important then some afterlife that may or may not exist. Human beings need to think more about now then dream about some eternal bliss in the future that doesn't in my opinion help us now or in the future.
Mankind has a future. Religious people that are hung up on the afterlife don't see it. That is one of the most destructive things about most religious philosophies.
Mankind has a future? Ok, you mean here on Earth? Ok, so it does.
However, if you think Christianity does not deal with that issue, your don't understand Christianity at all....notice:
'thy kingdom come, thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is in heaven..."
Christians mission is to bring heaven to earth, to live in such a way as to bring contentment and the peace of God to earth in the here and now. That is the kingdom mission of Christians. Not all of us demonstrate that well, but that is the mission give to us by God.
Your existential existence, if only viewed from an atheist perspective, will become a brutal future with out any hope at all. Thats just a function of human nature.
Your existential existence, if only viewed from an atheist perspective, will become a brutal future with out any hope at all. Thats just a function of human nature.
Mere speculation on your part, I'm afraid.
no Concerned Citizen, its not at all speculation.
The end result of atheism is pure hopeless randomness with no meaning or purpose. To claim otherwise is to contradict the very belief you just espoused. Hence atheism is self defeating at ever logical turn.
If its true that there is no god, then life is meaningless, your feelings are meaningless, your desires worthless and your future is the existential moment..no concern for anything or anyone else..pure hedonistic drives that are evolved by pure random chance.
The end can only be a brutal one.
No speculation, pure rational, logical conclusions is all that is.
You would like to think its an assumption, but thats simply because you have not thought your own position out to the end, most on here are more concerned with rebelling against the tides of faith, than critically evaluating their own.
No speculation, pure rational, logical conclusions is all that is. you presume to know much about human potential.
How do you veiw humanity & define human nature? From a Christian philosophical perspective, I assume.(correct me if I'm wrong)
Is the Christian philosophy an assumtion? Isn't it based on faith in Jesus Christ?
I'll repeat what I told shaun.
I define myself as an agnostic secular humanist. (Atheism is sometimes very loosely defined, sometimes it's appropriate to use the label, sometimes not.)
My philosophy is based on my belief system, my experiences, my logical conclusions(such as they've developed so far)The cumulation of experiences thoughts & ideas of many people before me. My love for the wonderful things that are human. My desire for truth & justice. My desire to know myself.
most on here are more concerned with rebelling against the tides of faith, than critically evaluating their own.
I can only speak for myself, but, I AM concerned with critically evaluating my philosophy & considering my reason for being. It's required for critical thinking , intellectual honesty & integrity.
On the other hand it seems to me Christians think they have some kind of ultimate truth.
I don't claim that. Truth is too elusive. Some times our greatest truths are our greatest errors. I choose to believe Humanity is an open ended ever evolving affair.
Dear concerned Cit
All truth is exclusive. You don't claim to know truth as its too elusive, yet that in itself is proclaiming a truth.
Your denial of my claim of truth knowing is a way of proclaiming your own truth. Its simply the law of non-contradiction.
You are not so dense that I have to define all the different nuances of the word truth, for Christs sake?
Like I said I view humanity as an open ended affair...
Neither one of us is finished with life yet. & I assume humanity won't be finished when we are gone. I don't presume to know the future. & I'm not trying to pull your leg with any law of non-contradiction.
But doesn't Christianity claim to have the ultimate truth, doesn't Christianity predict the future?
Could you just answer that?
Yes, it does.
Don't you predicct that its wrong?
DRD; Your denial of my claim of truth knowing is a way of proclaiming your own truth
No it's not. One might claim to NOT to know what this elusive truth is. That's not proclaiming one's OWN truth.
Do I predict Christianity is wrong?
This is my current perspective on Christianity:
I was raised as a Christian & made the choice to become a born again Christian as an adult, then stepped out of that into my present secular humanist perspective of leaving God(religion as a whole) out of the equation. From this perspective I see Christianity(& religion as a whole) as backward, full of myth & superstition, destructive & keeping down the whole of human potential. So is Christianity wrong? in that sense yes.
But was the concept, the birth of Christianity wrong? In the sense that it was a natural progression, an evolution of religion, No. Because from that perspective it was natural, born from the human mind.
But is Christianity wrong in predicting the future,assuming to know the ultimate truth, thrusting us into the afterlife? yes
larro, its a two part 'and' statement...it goes like this:
Christianity is wrong (this is a positiver assertion of fact, and a claim of truth knowing)
Next half says : although Christianity is wrong, I don't know what the elusive truth is.
The last have is almost contradictory of the first. If your dont' know the truth, then how do you know, and how can you positively assert that Christianity is not it??
You cannot have it both ways here Citizen/larro, you are in fact making truth claims when you deny Christianity.
IT
You make some pretty assertive claims in your last post. Can you substatiate them?
As CS Lewis points out, and so did Einstein, when reading the Gospels, you get no flavor of myth or legend.
I am not sure what you mean by 'superstition' when it comes to Christianity, as that word is not at all associated with our faith.
You also positively assert Christianity was born from the human mind:
What gives you this idea?
Man makes up warrior gods, not lambs.
Man makes up heavens of hedonism, not eternal worship.
Man makes up gods who give blessings to their followers, not promises of persecution and tribulation.
What man would make that up? Please give me your reasoning for such an assertion.
drd now you are starting to insult my intelligence & my goodwill.
There is no reason to substantiate what's obvious.
Christianity has blinded you my friend. You are pinging around inside the box.
DRD, I do assert that Christianity is wrong (for me).
Conversely, I can turn that statement right back on you.
Atheism is wrong (this is a positiver assertion of fact, and a claim of truth knowing). Although atheism is wrong, I don't know why people think I'm a complete fucking moron and need to pull my head out of my ass. Boy, it's dark in here.
Does this ignite any sparks of recognition DRD?
SOO...PER...STISH...UN. Let's say it again. SOO...PER...STISH...UN.
su·per·sti·tion /ˌsupərˈstɪʃən/ [soo-per-stish-uhn]
–noun
1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
2. a system or collection of such beliefs.
3. a custom or act based on such a belief.
4. irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, esp. in connection with religion.
5. any blindly accepted belief or notion.
Especially in connection with RELIGION!
Hello! Oh.
(Larro grabs DRD by the ears)
"Ok, hang on this might hurt for just a second, but believe me you'll be relieved in the end." .....foomph
Ummm...that was very funny, you have a sense of humor!!
LT
Substantiate what is obvious? Come now, it must not be too obvious, as the world is still overwhelmingly in disagreement with you.
Why do you decend to insults and cynical replies? Is a logical and reasonable response to my question beyond you? I asked why you think its man made? On what basis do you say this? If your reasonable, you can come up with some explanation.
Larro, I have made no bones that I think atheism is wrong...and irrational. I have in fact made a truth claim, and I do not deny that....you on the other hand, deny the obvious and contradict yourself all the time. Who's head is where?? Is there an echo?
larro
Does it not seem like your definition of superstition is very applicable to your atheism faith?
DRD grabs larro by the ears and says : wake up and smell the coffee dude.
Tina..funny??
Why do you decend to insults and cynical replies? Is a logical and reasonable response to my question beyond you? I asked why you think its man made? On what basis do you say this? If your reasonable, you can come up with some explanation.
Trying to make a point with you isn't worth the effort I have to put into it.
So, peace friend.
DRD; "as the world is still overwhelmingly in disagreement with you"
I don't have to philosophize my "belief system" with you DRD.
Rather I'd have people like you come to grips with the fact that there are people out there who just don't share your world view, however marginal they my be. And that they should be accepted and indeed applauded for helping to keep humanity as diverse as possible. But this is not the case with you. You (and Shaun) continually seek to point out the "evils" of atheism when you don't even know what it's like to be an atheist. People like you seek to marginalize atheism (and indeed many other viewpoints) even more than it is, by spreading your Christianity.
This is the goal of the Evangelical; to make the world Christian and in most cases to usher in the second coming over and over again.
Christians really do have no respect whatsoever for other world views; if they did they would just let them be. But they don't because whatever it is it's the "wrong" way to believe.
This is my guff with you DRD.
DRD; Does it not seem like your definition of superstition is very applicable to your atheism faith?
Actually no I don't, because I'm not superstitious. And atheism is not a faith-based belief system.
To be honest I identify more with secular humanist as a label than with atheist (I do claim both labels). I admit, though, 'atheist' is easier to type.
So being a secular humanist, it doesn't necessarily throw the religion issue out the window, but rather brings into focus a more compartmentalised approach to religion; that of it's role in society and specifically with the public arena.
LT
Great cop out...you have done it before when you have not rational response...2nd time for you.
Larro
I have no problem with you challenging me to think my positions through to their logical conclusions.
You, and the other atheists here, don't seem to share that view. You don't want to be challenged intellectually on your views, and if you are, you resort to name calling and ad hominem attacks. You attack me as being 'judgemental' when all I do is ask you to validate through reason, your philosophy. You refuse to discuss differences in our world view by callng me closed minded and judgemental...when your actions bespeak this much more so than mine.
You have not heard me say your evil, condemned or a worse person than me..not once...even beast trying his best, has not seen me say anything remotely like that, yet, you continue to accuse me of this? Your not being rational.
If and when I feel the need to cuss, swear and profane I'll do so whenever I damn well please.
Larro..you never saw me ask you not to cuss...I ask you to be rational and less emotional...but you demonstrate your irrationality by your inability to do so...cussing is only evidence of your intellectual frustration, and inability to deal with issues logically and rationally...its ok, I dn't mind at all. I consider the source.
if it was a real crimes maybe. But it's not so who cares!
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